Have loved reading your posts Bec, Bec and Jess.

Andy

I don’t disagree with any of your points per se, but some of your poins do remind me of how careful we need to be with language.

Ie. “Pastor’s Wife” – you might not see it as a negative thing, but I do, as do many of my female friends who regularly attend church. I don’t apologise for this – people have reactions to language all the time, which is why we should be careful with the words we choose.

Equally, I have an emotional reaction to the use of terms like “cynicism” (by Andrew) and phrases like “smothering the visions of others because of negative past experience”. It’s not that I actually disagree with the sentiments expressed by either of you – it’s just that I hear this vocabulary, and this kind of discourse, mobilised all the time to shut down debate and stifle dissent.

I’m not convinced that the onus is always on the person asking questions – why should it not also be on those of us who are using the language, and disseminating information? I understand perfectly well if people have a negative reaction when I describe myself as “a Christian” – that’s partly their problem, and I won’t stop using that word, but I also think that there’s an onus on me to explain (by words and actions) what I mean by that.

I really long for Christian communities to be places in which difference, and questioning, is celebrated rather than seen as a bad thing. I’m not advocating extreme cynicism, but I don’t share the view that we should always assume the best rather than the worst – this idea that Christians should be “positive”, “happy” and “nice” people is actually the cause of an awful lot of problems, ranging from the stifling of authenticity (ie it’s no ok to say you’re depressed) to the stifling of dissent (ie it’s no ok to criticise your pastor) After all, didn’t Jesus save his harshest criticism for those who professed to be following God’s way?!

wow Andy, I had no idea you even read this! We still have to come down some time.

“…Yes I am a Pastor & in that, I see it as my job to love, care, assist, equip, correct & teach those men & women in my local church that God has charged me with…”

“…As well as being a Pastor, I am a wife & mother of 3 young children…”

Assumption can be a dangerous thing, but I’m going to assume here that the reason “Pastors Wife” was used on the website was because they were wanting to show a little of themselves in a very small website space. I do actually know both Amy and Kerry and they are 2 of the most women valuing people I know, they don’t walk around everywhere introducing themselves as “Pastors Wives” they’d never use it as a term to hide behind. In fact I actually viewed their use of the term as a sort of affectionate phrase for how ridiculously smitten they both are as wives and supporters to loving husbands.

I think that “Pastors Wife” is a term we all understand.
It does build a greater sense of confidence in the company when you hear that it is associated with the local church, and I will join you Bec in your sadness that there have been instances when churches have used their influence to profit, rather than sow…but perhaps what it sadder, is when we allow ourselves to become people who smother the visions of others because negative past experiences have been cruel to our innocence.

I think that You’re entirely justified Bec, in wanting to know the real intentions of the companies you choose to invest in.

However in order to unearth truth, one must actively seek it. It would have been a sad thing indeed if you had simply read the information on Heague & Moran, felt your questions burning, left a comment on a friends blog and then never cared to think about the company again because “…This website pushed my buttons a bit …”.

I’ve dealt with companies on the internet before who claim to have christian links, yet something struck me as odd. So I went straight to the source, asked the questions and then listened to the words that came pouring out of the horses mouth.
Questions are all well and good, but they’re even better when they’re followed by an answer. I can see that you appreciate an intellectual discussion Bec, so I in no way want you to feel like this is an attack of any sort, coz that really isn’t my intention.
If anything I want to encourage you!!
The church needs more people to stand up and ask the tough questions, we’ve just gotta be willing to ask them to the people who need to hear ‘em, because if we don’t then we allow for gossip to take hold and we encourage disunity amongst those whom we are called to hold as dear as family.

I don’t doubt that Amy and Kerry would be more than happy to answer any questions. In fact, they want to know, what people want to know. I’m sure that if there was interest in certain aspects of the company, more information on the programs they’re supporting and such, they would probably even post it on the website should people show an interest in that information. But, they can’t know it’s wanted if no one speaks up and tells them its wanted

But to finish this rather long winded ramble, I want to end with this. I really, really want to be a person who supports and encourages those who truly want to help this world. I really, really want to encourage those who do more than just ‘want to help’, but actually get moving and put that ‘want’ into action. I want to be wise about it, I want to help them see if there is anything not quite right and be able to correct it. But I really, really don’t want to be a person who fears the worst before they hope the best. I really really want to be a person who encourages the Body of Christ to put down their bible every so often, stretch their legs and dare to get out there and have a go.
They won’t get it exactly right all the time, but if their intentions are good and Gods purpose is there, then I want one of the loudest sounds coming from the stands, to be the sound of the cheers coming from me.

I’ve got an incling that I’m not the only one

Jess
xoxo

P.S. Apologies for the loooooog comment. I never have established a way to respond in a short and concise manner. :p

Re: pastor’s wife – I *do* have a problem with that phrase, for several reasons. Firstly, I don’t agree with the perspective on gender roles that it implies. I recognise that this is an ongoing debate, so I understand that not everyone will share my view, but that’s my position.

Secondly, I am yet to hear a Christian woman describe herself – in conversation or on a website – as an “engineer’s wife”, “lawyer’s wife”, “doctor’s wife”, “gardener’s wife”, “builder’s wife” etc etc. Again, I have a theological problem with that – to me, these differences suggest a theology where the role of a pastor is still valued above all others.

Finally, I am concerned about the power dynamics inherent in the use of such phrases. In some Christian subcultures, being a pastor or a pastor’s wife is a ticket to instant credibility. That concerns me, because I’ve seen the destructive consequences of this, both for “congregants” and “pastors”. (Please note – this is not a specific reference to Amy AT ALL – I’m merely outlining why I have a problem with the phrase “pastor’s wife”)

Re: the 10% – people will always disagree on what constitutes “enough”. My comment was really directed at the fact that I like to see more facts and figures before I enthusiastically embrace something as a socially- and environmentally-conscious enterprise. I’m trying really hard to be a conscious consumer, and that means asking questions about where things come from, how they were made, how much money is going where…

I think that its important to encourage other Christians wherever possible when it comes to trying to do something good in the world. I agree that it can be easy to assume the worst about a person or a company because there are so many other dodgy ones out there!

But from what I see, there is no reason to assume that there is anything dodgy in this case. Amy said on her website that she is a Pastor’s wife… well, that’s what she is! Or would you rather her not mention it at all?

In terms of the 10% stuff, as a small business owner myself, I know that 10% is a lot when you look at all the overheads of running a business. I challenge anyone who is cynical about the matter to donate 10% of THEIR wage to third world sellers on top of their tithe. With the current size of Heague & Moran, it would probably be quite risky and unreasonable to promise any more than this at this stage. Imagine if the business collapsed in its first few months, then no-one would get anything!

I think the key is to keep an open mind when viewing people doing good stuff in the community, but at same time, businesses should be willing to face public scrutiny.

Lovink youse all,
Andy

No obligations!!

I’m not sure If I do obligations!!!